Editor's note: I don't agree with Alex that games are currently immune to the kind of judgments he finds so abhorrent between consumers of other forms of expression, nor do I believe that classifying games as art suddenly makes the medium vulnerable to such petty quarrels. Nevertheless, I still find the debate surrounding this issue worthy of discussion. Where do you stand? -Rob
A part of me hopes that games don't gain the artistic credentials they seek. I don't care that Roger Ebert thinks video games are incapable of being "high art." I realize these statements are inflammatory, but let me explain....
Interpretations of art have long been tied up with judgments about a person's intelligence, and I'd rather not see video games go down that same, tired road.
One way in which I justify playing video games to my wife is that I feel like I'm part of a grand conversation. I read a lot of books and listen to all kinds of music, but I don't feel comfortable voicing my opinions about either of those.
I'd feel distressed answering questions from a stranger about the contents of my record store bag or MP3 player. Too much personal judgment comes into play with a conversation like that -- I'd feel the need to justify my personal tastes out of fear that I might be held to his musical standards.
If I said I don't like Radiohead, perhaps the most critically acclaimed band of the past 15 years, I would be marginalized by the music press and music snobs alike. I don't feel like my opinions would be taken seriously.
I feel like this kind of judgment happens because of the art label attached to mediums like music and books.
But if I sat next to someone holding a Gamestop bag on the bus, I would feel entirely at ease asking him what he picked up or what he's been playing lately.
That's why I love video games.
I'm comfortable talking about games without being judged by my tastes. If Bitmob Managing Editor Jason Wilson says he doesn't care for Chrono Trigger, I get the impression that people can accept his opinion and realize that he probably likes role-playing games with a bit more customization.
I love hearing opinions from a seasoned critic and from the average player whose buying decisions are heavily influence by television advertising. Both reactions are valid because games do not have the associated baggage that comes with being considered art. Whereas the kid who thinks that Muse invented progressive rock is laughed at by music snobs.
Please don't misinterpret my arugment as one against indie games, which are considered by many to be art. I'm all for less killing, more focus on story, better developed characters, and less sexual objectification.
My argument against games as art is not so much a cogent point about the failings of the medium; no, my hope is that the pretensions which come with art never enter the video game world.
I just want people to feel comfortable talking about games in any setting, and I hope that we can all keep judgments about a person's intelligence out of mind. I want a chance encounter discussing video games with 1UP Editor Jeremy Parish to be enjoyable (even if he's so sick of random gamers coming up to him).
The day I hear someone say, "Resident Evil sucks, only idiots like that game. You should play The Path if you want to a real survival-horror experience" is the day I no longer want to talk to anybody I meet on the street about video games.
I believe the problem is not necessarily with the idea of art but with human nature. I hope as the young medium of video games moves forward we can keep pretentious airs far away.
Where do you think "games as art" will take the community? Beyond fanboyism and stupid message boards, do you feel tension when you talk to someone else about games?
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Comments (21)
The reactions that Jason Wilson received were still pretty strong. I have a feeling that if he posted his story at one of the other popular gaming sites, you'd see the same vitriolic derision that you're expecting from art critics. I really don't think you need the "art" moniker attached to video games to get those types of responses. I think it has more to do with the passion people have for their chosen media.
I see where you're coming from, but discourse regarding video games has it's own problems. Right now, it seems that games are evaluated by the standards you'd apply to non-media products. Some game reviews almost come across as consumer reports to me, especially when value for your dollar is brought up. Film critics never bring up bang for your buck.
Also, I agree with Jay. I think you might have a stronger reaction to someone saying 'Imagine: Party Babyz is the best game ever' than you think.
In any case, I'd hope that the attitude shift towards games as art wouldn't drastically change the gaming community, but you very well might have a point there.
Also, I agree with Jay. I think you might have a stronger reaction to someone saying 'Imagine: Party Babyz is the best game ever' than you think.
In any case, I'd hope that the attitude shift towards games as art wouldn't drastically change the gaming community, but you very well might have a point there.
You guys both make great points.
@Travis I guess my scope was limited and I made a judgment that most people are playing the same generally well received games. I probably would have a reaction to someone seriously enjoying Ubisoft "z" games.
I just hate how splintered and exclusive the music world is right now and I hope that the video games community maintains a bit more dignity and we never get some incarnation of video game hipsters.
@Travis I guess my scope was limited and I made a judgment that most people are playing the same generally well received games. I probably would have a reaction to someone seriously enjoying Ubisoft "z" games.
I just hate how splintered and exclusive the music world is right now and I hope that the video games community maintains a bit more dignity and we never get some incarnation of video game hipsters.
@Alex I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a true shovelware fan (outside of comedy writers, ahem), so you're point remains strong. I feel like there's a real friendly vibe in the games community that I hope remains. I'd like to say that games as art wouldn't hurt that, but (as you pointed out) other recognized art forms suffer from major condescention in their respective communities.
Regardless, very thought provoking piece.
Regardless, very thought provoking piece.
As someone who met Jeremy Parish at a party in Tokyo, I wish I could say I was comfortable talking to him about games. Instead I got all nervous and fawning and it was hella awkward. But that's my fault, not his.
I'm hearing what you're trying to say here but I don't think it's all that tied to the notion of high art, low art, or art in general. Every form of media has snobs. Right now, there IS someone out there complaining about Resident Evil being stupid and how The Path is the greatest horror game ever made. The cultural status of video games is irrelevant to him (or her).
I welcome the slow ascention of video games into the art world. We're already here, of course, and have been for years, but with the expansion of gaming opportunities and and the spread of low-tech indie games, we've got more examples than ever before to champion before the naysayers.
Enjoy it, Alex! Snobbery be damned!
I'm hearing what you're trying to say here but I don't think it's all that tied to the notion of high art, low art, or art in general. Every form of media has snobs. Right now, there IS someone out there complaining about Resident Evil being stupid and how The Path is the greatest horror game ever made. The cultural status of video games is irrelevant to him (or her).
I welcome the slow ascention of video games into the art world. We're already here, of course, and have been for years, but with the expansion of gaming opportunities and and the spread of low-tech indie games, we've got more examples than ever before to champion before the naysayers.
Enjoy it, Alex! Snobbery be damned!
Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with calling video games works of "art". I think the people that have a problem with it just have a tighter definition of what "art" is.
Thanks everybody for your comments!
@ Travis
Dammit! "condescension" was the word I was groping for while writing this. Well, you grasped what I was trying to say and said it more clearly, thanks.
@ Travis
Dammit! "condescension" was the word I was groping for while writing this. Well, you grasped what I was trying to say and said it more clearly, thanks.
I think you will still come upon snobs vs mainstream no matter what medium you observe. Tim Schafer vs Bungie/Epic. Kojima vs Miyamoto. I've actually had these conversations and while it never turned bitter or elitist there are still points to be made for either side.
What's helped me is being non-critical of someone's tastes. Someone likes J.K. Rowling, Sophie Kinsella, Nicholas Sparks, Paramore, Lil Wayne, Josh Groban, Michael Bay, Paul Blart-type movies and all games released with the word "Madden" in it? Great! I happen to dig Suzanne Collins, Raymond K. Feist, Edward Conlon, Wax & EOM, Massive Attack, Tiger Army, Park Chan-Wook, Guy Ritchie, Kim Ki-duk, and any game that keeps my attention longer than 2 hours. Doesn't mean our love for these things is any less fervent.
And I just read the comments following Jason Wilson's review of Fighting Fantasy on 1up and let me tell you. Those comments mixed with the response to his Chrono Trigger disinterest make for interesting reading. He has different tastes than other people! Big deal! Once people get over that small hurdle than we can all start having more fun.
What's helped me is being non-critical of someone's tastes. Someone likes J.K. Rowling, Sophie Kinsella, Nicholas Sparks, Paramore, Lil Wayne, Josh Groban, Michael Bay, Paul Blart-type movies and all games released with the word "Madden" in it? Great! I happen to dig Suzanne Collins, Raymond K. Feist, Edward Conlon, Wax & EOM, Massive Attack, Tiger Army, Park Chan-Wook, Guy Ritchie, Kim Ki-duk, and any game that keeps my attention longer than 2 hours. Doesn't mean our love for these things is any less fervent.
And I just read the comments following Jason Wilson's review of Fighting Fantasy on 1up and let me tell you. Those comments mixed with the response to his Chrono Trigger disinterest make for interesting reading. He has different tastes than other people! Big deal! Once people get over that small hurdle than we can all start having more fun.
I sometimes feel awkward admitting how much I like games to strangers. If games were out of the cultural ghetto, I would be more comfortable talking about them to non-gamers.
Art is a conversation between creator and audience. Reviewers are an indicator of the audience. If reviews continue as they are, no worries, you won't be confronted with too much pretension.
But pretension is a good thing. It pushes the medium. You can tune art snobs out. But developers won't and they will strive for better product, hopefully bringing the bottom end up with it.
The reverse will hold true. If games will aspire to be what you would like, according to the article, art snobs are going to come with it whether you like it or not. Modern culture is designed to bring douchebags with it.
In dealing with art snobs (and I can be one), the best thing is to develop your opinions with confidence and justification. Because if they get snobby on you, you can still hold true to the experiences that you entertain yourself with.
And sometimes, even if they're dicks about it, they do have a couple good points, despite being layered under cynicism and sarcasm.
But pretension is a good thing. It pushes the medium. You can tune art snobs out. But developers won't and they will strive for better product, hopefully bringing the bottom end up with it.
The reverse will hold true. If games will aspire to be what you would like, according to the article, art snobs are going to come with it whether you like it or not. Modern culture is designed to bring douchebags with it.
In dealing with art snobs (and I can be one), the best thing is to develop your opinions with confidence and justification. Because if they get snobby on you, you can still hold true to the experiences that you entertain yourself with.
And sometimes, even if they're dicks about it, they do have a couple good points, despite being layered under cynicism and sarcasm.
Welcome to fan culture. The "art" monkier has nothing to do with it. There's that level of everything you seem to be uncomfortable with in almost anything. Political discourse, sports talk (boy is it ever is sports talk), food and beer. It doesn't have to be anything related to an art. If that something that you're not up to facing from time to time, I'd suggest never talking about anything. Ever.
I have two approaches of dealing with anything that seems to place value judgments on a person based on their tastes or fandoms. Either, I directly address that aspect of their own judgmental nature as more problematic than the more - at least to me- trivial issue of what anything likes or two not engage them at all to begin with. Not involving myself in discussion with a person that I know is not going to be fruitful, lowers a lot of the irritation of those views being out there to begin with.
I'm in a bit of disagreement with Andrew on one thing. Pretension generally isn't good for anyone but the ego of the pretentious person. There are plenty of ways of being critical and pushing any medium forward without with vanity and self-importance that's associated with pretension. Ambition is great and I can get behind anyone pushing for higher ambitions. But that can be accomplished without people riding their own jocks.
I have two approaches of dealing with anything that seems to place value judgments on a person based on their tastes or fandoms. Either, I directly address that aspect of their own judgmental nature as more problematic than the more - at least to me- trivial issue of what anything likes or two not engage them at all to begin with. Not involving myself in discussion with a person that I know is not going to be fruitful, lowers a lot of the irritation of those views being out there to begin with.
I'm in a bit of disagreement with Andrew on one thing. Pretension generally isn't good for anyone but the ego of the pretentious person. There are plenty of ways of being critical and pushing any medium forward without with vanity and self-importance that's associated with pretension. Ambition is great and I can get behind anyone pushing for higher ambitions. But that can be accomplished without people riding their own jocks.
Video games are NOT art. That's just judging everything I have ever played in my life. Maybe they could be in the future but who really gives a damn? Video games are-- FUN!!! Which is the main thing I want out of gaming. I can be a complete art-snob when it comes to the books, films, and music I take in, and if I want to part in something really emotional with tons of depth I go there. Games don't need to be that.
It seems like the problem isn't whether or not games are art, but whether or not art enthusiasts are smug assholes.
That said, I think it will be beneficial not only to games, but to art critique in general for games to become "acceptable" art. Compartmentalization isn't a bad thing, and games make it much easier to judge the distinction between "enjoyment" and "quality."
It's perfectly acceptable to say you sunk 15 hours into "Babiez 4" because you enjoy the mechanics of a virtual pet game, or to say that you really don't like God of War because you just couldn't get anything out of the combat mechanics. Hopefully, instead of that personal-response compartmentalization going away, it will spread into criticism of other mediums--being able to say you don't like The Office because you have trouble watching awkward humor, or that you really enjoyed Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen because the CG was pretty and the robot fights were fun.
There will always be assholes who think their opinion is the only valid opinion. Hopefully, games will help everyone else figure out that "I enjoyed it" and "it was good" can be two completely different things.
That said, I think it will be beneficial not only to games, but to art critique in general for games to become "acceptable" art. Compartmentalization isn't a bad thing, and games make it much easier to judge the distinction between "enjoyment" and "quality."
It's perfectly acceptable to say you sunk 15 hours into "Babiez 4" because you enjoy the mechanics of a virtual pet game, or to say that you really don't like God of War because you just couldn't get anything out of the combat mechanics. Hopefully, instead of that personal-response compartmentalization going away, it will spread into criticism of other mediums--being able to say you don't like The Office because you have trouble watching awkward humor, or that you really enjoyed Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen because the CG was pretty and the robot fights were fun.
There will always be assholes who think their opinion is the only valid opinion. Hopefully, games will help everyone else figure out that "I enjoyed it" and "it was good" can be two completely different things.
There's been many times I've heard 'this is a fun movie' but I've never actually seen a film that's been fun on the level of even the worst games. Both are very different mediums, and I think games do fun way better on average then films to art, or excitement, or empathy, or a lot of things. I find it's easier to cry at the worst of movies, maybe that's what they are going for and kudos for that, they can make me get a reaction in 2 hours or less whereas lots of great games that last 10-20-40 hours can't get a peep out of me really other then enjoyment.
Games can't exactly have a yard stick put up to them I guess, but I honestly do see enough art in games to be happy. Though you do need an understanding more then I assume a painting does, to considering it artistic. I think designing a level to lead a player in a specific direction without signs or waypoints is art, and I think gaming is full of these design queues which I do consider art.
Different mediums require different standards, Games are NOT music and films as both of those are extremely narrow in the emotions they can convey... games are more then both of those combined as they can do similar things on a vast scale.
Games can't exactly have a yard stick put up to them I guess, but I honestly do see enough art in games to be happy. Though you do need an understanding more then I assume a painting does, to considering it artistic. I think designing a level to lead a player in a specific direction without signs or waypoints is art, and I think gaming is full of these design queues which I do consider art.
Different mediums require different standards, Games are NOT music and films as both of those are extremely narrow in the emotions they can convey... games are more then both of those combined as they can do similar things on a vast scale.
My opinion about this is that some things are, even in "accepted" artistic mediums, just for fun. Not every musician or author is trying to create something to span the ages, some just want a paycheck or to enjoy themselves. Weird Al Yankovic in music and Douglas Adams in literature come to mind. Very few folks would call these endeavorers art, but they still have a place in their medium. Games are like this, some have a gripping narrative, a visual style, a poignant message that would be difficult or impossible in any other medium. Like music that deeply evokes an emotion, or the novel that is too grand in scope for Hollywood to tackle on film, or conversely, that movie that reminds you what is truly important in life. Then there's Mylie Cyrus, The Twilight series of books and Dumb and Dumber. All fine in their place, but rarely considered to be the pinnacle of artistic expression.
Video games are like this to me. Some have lofty goals and self imposed standards. I'm not going to drag out the tired old list again, we all know what games get held up to the world to try and gain artistic acceptance for our infant medium. The thing is we don't need anyone else to accept gaming, we've accepted it. They have the potential to move those who create them, and us to feel, think and act differently. That sounds like the definition of art to me.
On the subject of sharing, many of the people who've commented here before me are right, in the information age so many folks mistake their feeling and opinions for facts and wield them like weapons against those they feel are misguided cretins. It's really too bad that you don't feel like you can talk about what you read and listen to openly, it's getting to the point that only the bigoted hate mongers that are so loud on xbox live and message boards everywhere will be heard while those of us with common sense just sit back and let them yell. Thanks for making this place less like that bitmob.
Video games are like this to me. Some have lofty goals and self imposed standards. I'm not going to drag out the tired old list again, we all know what games get held up to the world to try and gain artistic acceptance for our infant medium. The thing is we don't need anyone else to accept gaming, we've accepted it. They have the potential to move those who create them, and us to feel, think and act differently. That sounds like the definition of art to me.
On the subject of sharing, many of the people who've commented here before me are right, in the information age so many folks mistake their feeling and opinions for facts and wield them like weapons against those they feel are misguided cretins. It's really too bad that you don't feel like you can talk about what you read and listen to openly, it's getting to the point that only the bigoted hate mongers that are so loud on xbox live and message boards everywhere will be heard while those of us with common sense just sit back and let them yell. Thanks for making this place less like that bitmob.
Not all videogames can be art, just like not all paintings can be art. Sometimes they are just paint.
In your closing question, I'd say you're mistaken to ignore the tension created by fanboys. That fanboy mentality is the origin of the hipster. Both are ardent defenders of their lifestyles and frequently revel in "I was here before this was cool" arguments. Also, I'd say we as a group feel comfortable discussing the medium casually because it's what we're familiar with. People who are constantly reading and listening to music have a much easier time discussing their tastes. I know this is why I never discuss "good" books. I know what I like, but I don't spend enough time reading to make an informed decision. I do, however, play plenty of games, so I feel confident when I talk about how Audiosurf approach differs from Rock Band.
I really appreciate you arguing AGAINST games as art, it is refreshing. I personally don't see why many video game enthusiasts are so defensive when outsiders don't see games as art.
Ever since Duchamp put a urinal on display, you can argue more and more that EVERYTHING can be considered art. There is no universal definition of art. If games are art to YOU, then they are art to YOU. Maybe not Roger Ebert or that random guy on the street but they might see other things as art that you don't agree with.
Art is way too subjective to try and convince outsiders to see games in the same light as you as many people try.
Ever since Duchamp put a urinal on display, you can argue more and more that EVERYTHING can be considered art. There is no universal definition of art. If games are art to YOU, then they are art to YOU. Maybe not Roger Ebert or that random guy on the street but they might see other things as art that you don't agree with.
Art is way too subjective to try and convince outsiders to see games in the same light as you as many people try.
I think, in general, people will take your arguments seriously if they are well constructed and well supported. If you just said something like "Radiohead sucks," then, yes, you would be marginalized, and deservedly so, because your argument is inflammatory and unsupported. However, if, instead, you said something like "Radiohead is overly grandiose in their attempts to convey a sense of the modern condition, and their lyrics are often cryptic and undecipherable, leading one to question whether their writing is purposefully ambiguous or vague simply because they are unable to articulate what they really intend to say," then I think at least some people would take you seriously.
I think you are hiding behind this idea of "art snobbery" and marginalization because you want a world where people can feel comfortable talking not just about games, but about anything without being judged. Well, I'm sorry to say that when things matter, judgments will always come into play. People will judge your musical tastes because they feel that musical tastes matter. People don't judge you by the video games you play, but only because they don't think they matter. However, the truth is, I do judge people, at least a little bit, based on the games they play. Because I feel games matter. And I've judged you based on this article you've written, based on your arguments, based on your usage of language. YOU SIR, HAVE BEEN JUDGED. Get over it; it's not such a big deal.
I think you are hiding behind this idea of "art snobbery" and marginalization because you want a world where people can feel comfortable talking not just about games, but about anything without being judged. Well, I'm sorry to say that when things matter, judgments will always come into play. People will judge your musical tastes because they feel that musical tastes matter. People don't judge you by the video games you play, but only because they don't think they matter. However, the truth is, I do judge people, at least a little bit, based on the games they play. Because I feel games matter. And I've judged you based on this article you've written, based on your arguments, based on your usage of language. YOU SIR, HAVE BEEN JUDGED. Get over it; it's not such a big deal.
This article says a lot more about the author's insecurity than it does about video games. He seems to be someone who feels on shaky ground when the "art" word comes out, so he wants to keep it at bay in video games. The thing is, people disagree about the merits of games all the time, art or not. So apparently if someone said to him, "your favorite game is bad because it's too hard and the character design is stupid," he would say, "you don't know what you're talking about," but if someone said "your favorite game is bad because it fails to set it's post modern sensibilities in a context that connects with the player emotionally" he would freak out and run away.
Do what I do, when people tell me a bad movie is a great work of art, I say, it was pretentious and boring. I do the same thing with games. We can define art as we like, I define boring art as bad art in any discipline.
Do what I do, when people tell me a bad movie is a great work of art, I say, it was pretentious and boring. I do the same thing with games. We can define art as we like, I define boring art as bad art in any discipline.
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