Great discussion.

I agree with a lot of the points both of you make. I'm about 28 hours into FFXIII, and I love it so far. I find the complaints that it "isn't Final Fantasy enough" ridiculous. Final Fantasy games have always been about change. Even when they had the same basic battle system (from FFIV to FFIX), other mechanics (such as leveling and spell learning) would change drastically.

Final Fantasy 12, another game that I thought was brilliant, had to deal with a lot of the same criticisms FFXIII is dealing with now. "It plays itself." "It's too different."

I'm surprised that FFXIII is taking as much a beating from some critics as it is. I mean, I guess I can see how it can kind of rub you the wrong way, but some of those 60 and 50 review scores (and Destructoid's 40) just seem bizarre to me.

I want to thank Brian for taking the time to do this with me! It's great when we get to work with members of the community on a story.

Way to go you two as you both are two of my many favorite writers here on bitmob.

This is a wonderful article! Hit every beat that scrolled through my mind while I was playing it.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that hates Vanille's voice. I got to a part last night where she tried to display some form of dismay, and it made me cringe, hard.

I'm eager to play Final Fantasy 13. I liked 12, but when I realized how much grinding I'd have to do to get anywhere, I quit. It's not like I didn't give the game a chance; I played it for 40 hours!

And I thought X-2 was good, except for when I got stuck trying to find one of those spheres to open a door and I decided that this was the 'real' ending.

So Final Fantasy 13, with all its changes, left save points intact? That's disappointing.

Also, Final Fantasy 10-2 gets a lot of shit for the dress spheres, but it's just a fancy name for the job system used in Final Fantasys 3 and 5.

@Rob I don't give 10-2 crap for the dress spheres. I give it crap for turning 10's heroes into...pop stars. Where the hell did that come from?

Jason, I agree. That was incredibly weird.

I got to say playing FF XIII is making look forward to playing Alpha Protocol even more ...

If I waste 40+ hours only to lose interest and never actually complete it, yes, it's a final fantasy game.

Sucks that God of War 3 came out a week later, because after playing God of War 3 for a few hours, thinking about FF13's tame gameplay makes me yawn.  At least I have the awesome plot and totally not annoying at all characters to help me get through FF 13's 50+ hours of tilting the analog stick up and hitting X occasionally. 

FFX-2 has my favorite battle system. Always loved jobs. Switching them on the fly? Awesome. But yeah, I didn't really get the story.

@Mike Minotti  Bear in mind that Destructoid's review was written by Jim Sterling, whose entire being is composed of corporeal acrimony. ;)

That was a really nice discussion.  FF13 is also my favorite entry in the series in a while (even though I loved 12, it had its share of glaring flaws).

But am I the only one who feels that they use the Datalog as a crutch?  I enjoy having the lore info, the bestiary and the story recaps, but often it gets used as a platform to deliver exposition on what the characters are feeling.  **minor, vague spoilers** I find this is especially true with Hope and Lightning early in the game.  Hope is supposedly burning with rage that's masked by his insecurities and lack of confidence.  That's fine (actually, I think that's a great and layered character trait that I've not seen in games), but I would never have seen under that mask if the game hadn't explicitly explained it to me outside of its own narrative.  Same with Lighting's mentoring Hope -- there are these moments where he says something and then she just kind of looks off into space, and then the Datalog has to pop up and tell me why.  I just feel like they should have chosen more elegant ways to convey these things.  Have Hope lose his cool once or twice, have Lightning be a little more straightforward with her ever-changing advice...I dunno...I'd love to hear what other people think.

@Christian How do you feel about the codices of games such as Dragon Age and Mass Effect? 

@Jason For me, the big difference is that in those games, most, if not all, of that information is strictly optional.  They enhance my understanding and appreciation for what's going on by informing me of the extensive worldbuilding that has gone into those games.  FF13 does that too and I appreciate it just as much.  However, in the case of DA or ME, those codices never extend directly into the current narrative.  I never have to reference them to see, "What's Tali thinking?" or "What did Alistair mean when he said..."

On the other hand, those games have their characters handle a lot of the exposition in direct conversation.  You ask Alistair why he's acting the way he is and he tells you (in great detail).  But I don't think FF13 requires that kind of detail.  Indeed, the Datalog isn't nearly as exhaustive as the codices in those games, and for the better, I think.  That's why I think it shouldn't have been too difficult for the writers and developers to find a way to address these topics within the narrative, instead of falling back on the Datalog to handle it for them.

While I'm not sure there really are any particular aspects that make a Final Fantasy game a FF, I will say that I'm enjoying FFXIII immensely.  Sure, the pacing can be a bit slow and uneven, but that has never really been an area that the series consistently excel at.  But the battle system is fantastic.  I do wish they opened up the customization options regarding various class roles and Paradigm combinations a bit earlier, but the battle sequences are fast paced and strategic, and the game does a good job of limiting the effectiveness (and necessity) of grinding. 

Overall, the story and characters which are about par for the (JRPG) course unfortunately prevents it from being on the same level as my favorite games in the genre which combines strong narrative/cast with fun gameplay, but it's the most enjoyable JRPG of this "generation" that I've played thus far.

This project was a lot of fun, and I'm glad people are enjoying it. Thanks so much for inviting me to be a part of this, Jason!

@Kai: What are a few games you consider to have a strong narrative/cast?

@Brian: it's a flawed game, even in some narrative aspects, but Xenogears remains the standard for me, helped in no small part due to how memorable the cast, and even many of the side characters, are.   It didn't come out in the best days of Square's localizations, but I can't think of a JRPG that I've found to have a more gripping story.

And I forgot to mention it in the previous comment, but good job on the article, I found it a very fun read.

@Kai: Thanks! And I love your answer, as Xenogears still has my favorite game narrative after all these years.

@Jason and Brian - As it pertains to Sazh, if he initially comes off as a goofy stereotype, it's because one the surface he pretty much is. Sadly, most Japanese depictions of blacks are based on stereotypes in American media. Trust me, I was prepared to hate the guy from day one, if for nothing else that stupid 'Frocobo.

Just like you, however, I came around on him and very quickly. Yeah, he has he 80s-90s black buddy-cop film sidekick comic moments. Some make me cringe, some are clever (such as the Danny Glover Lethal Weapon "I'm too old for this line"). But he's a very likable person and does exhibit another interest blanket trait the Japanese, at least that I've consumed and/or be aware of, put on to black male characters, a really strong paternal instinct and groundedness.

Think to the chief in Parasite Eve and Barret in FFVII just within Square's universes. The chief had that mentor/father role to Aya. While Barret in no way shape or form has been grounded down (temper/foul-mouth), his devotion to Marlene plays heavily into his motivations through that game. Sazh's falls in that line and I think (as far as I've gotten into it) he's easily the most likeable person in the main cast. Which I never remotely expected.

I'm kind of over a lot of people saying "it doesn't feel like a final fantasy game." I always say "Name two that are similar." Final Fantasy IS about change, and revolutionizing the way we play RPGs now. I guarantee you future RPGs are going to be looking at this game as a reference point. 

Great job on the article, it really hit home on a lot of my thoughts and opinions. 

I want to have Brian Shirk's metaphorical babies!

PS- I request a Yakuza 3 review by Mr. Shirk, and would even be willing to send him my copy once I am done to get one... if he would send it back. I'm not rich, ya know!

I think this article reasserts the fact I need to get the game. Change is always bad and I wish people would realize that,whether it be in a videogame or real life.

@Frank: Haha, I hope I didn't kill them already.

If you're serious, that would be awesome! Otherwise, I'll probably rent it once I eventually get GameFly. Just so you know, though, I've never played a Yakuza title.

@Brian Shirk: Silly human, metaphoric children can't die!

Really though, I am totally serious about sending you Yakuza 3. Email me at ncfrank23@yahoo.com. I think it would make a great fit since you have been talking about Japanese games so much lately. It also has some RPG aspects as well. I would be very interested in hearing what you have to say.

Don't worry too much about not having played any other Yakuza games. This one gives you a pretty long (about 10-20  minutes per game) intro video to catch you up on the story.

Like I said, as long as you would send it back to me when you are done I would be happy to, and if you don't think it is a good fit for your writing you can send it back and skip writing about it. I doubt you would hate it, though. Email me!

OK. This has marinated for a couple of days. Community: Do you enjoy seeing articles where you and a Bitmob editor interact together? I've done this twice now (the first time with Omar before he joined the staff), and I'm curious if you guys like this sort of thing. 

@Jason I don't think I saw the first one but I really enjoyed reading this one!  I like this format for looking at a game -- people talking and bouncing ideas off each other -- and involving the community is, of course, what Bitmob's all about.  Having opportunities for members of Bitmob to directly interact with the editors in the context of a published article makes the community stronger and the content more unique.

@Jason: I enjoy them. I think stories like this are a great highlight of why the Bitmob community is the best video game community on the net.

It really put my discomfort of Vanille's voice into an understandable view. It bothers me how it seems to fit with Fang, them being close and all, and yet it's STILL sounds inconsistent.