You Don't Have To Play Games To Judge Them

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Thursday, April 22, 2010

Editor's Note: I agree with Cameron's idea only on the most basic, literal level. While nothing physically prevents you from passing judgment on a game without actually playing it, I feel strongly that you do need to experience it in its entirety if you actually want other people to place value on your opinion. I hastily judge things all of the time, but I also don't expect other people to ascribe to my point of view unless I am able to speak from experience and with authority on the subject. Nevertheless, I think Cameron gives us a good discussion point, and I'm curious to hear what the rest of you think. -Jay


On Friday, a certain film critic (who shall remain nameless) published his second attack on video games. In the course of writing off the entire medium (again), he called Braid and Flower “pathetic” on the basis of seeing a few seconds of video of each. In response to this attack, former EGM/1Up writer Nick Suttner wrote an impassioned comment (which he later turned into a blog post) imploring said critic to play some recent games before declaring the entire medium inherently inferior. I’m not mentioning the critic’s name here because I don’t want this to become about his remarks. He’s just poking at a hornet’s nest, then crowing about how immature the hornets are for stinging him. That’s not worth discussing. But Suttner’s “don’t knock it until you try it” argument does deserve a mention because, impassioned as it is, it’s wrong.

A lot of bad arguments in the world sound convincing if you don’t think about them too hard. “Don’t knock it until you try it” is one of them. I don’t have to try acupuncture to know that it doesn’t work. That’s because acupuncture is based on the magical concept of qi, and numerous well-designed clinical trials have shown that its effects are the same as placebo. I don't have to waste my time on it to know that it's a waste of my time.

 

Of course we’re discussing art here, not science. No experiment will prove that something is or isn’t a work of art because the definition of “art” is as nebulous as the definition of “game.” However, you can glean enough information about a work to know, without directly experiencing it, that it is not something you would consider art. I haven’t played BMX XXX, but I saw screenshots and read reviews which support my preconceived notion that the game is dreck. Is that unfair? No. In my opinion, a bad extreme sports game that rewards the player with exploitative images of women is not a work of art. The screens I looked at and the reviews I read confirmed that I was right about the game's content. Interacting with it would have no effect on my opinion about its status as a work of art.

But surely things are different where games like Braid and Flower are concerned. Certainly, if you just play them, you’ll see that they are, indeed, works of art! Again I say, "No, not necessarily." The exact same thing applies here that did with regards to BMX XXX. I’m not talking about our nameless film critic here, because his research of Braid and Flower, by his own admission, amounted to seeing clips of them played during a TED lecture. That’s not enough effort to justify an opinion. But, given the slipperiness of the definition of “art,” it wouldn’t be impossible for someone to make an internally consistent case that those games aren’t art without having played them.

Suttner makes the important point that interactivity is the defining characteristic of video games, but our nameless critic has said in the past that he considers interactive works, regardless of medium, to be out of the running for consideration as art. This extreme view is probably not shared by the majority of other critics. But if this is part of his definition of art, then playing games will do nothing to change his opinion of them. Aside from that, though, a medium’s defining characteristic is not necessarily relevant to the evaluation of a particular work in that medium. I played Dante’s Inferno, but I knew it was really bad art before ever picking up a controller, and doing so had no effect on my judgment. I’m not even sure that I would have to play something as complex as Sleep is Death in order to make a competent judgment about its artistic merits, if I could see video of people actually playing it and learn what goes on in a play session. With enough information, my subjective experience would take a backseat to other facts at my disposal.

I’m not saying that game critics can feel free to stop playing games, or that every game can be judged without anyone directly experiencing it. For one thing, subjective accounts of someone's experience with a game are interesting to read about. Also, many times the resources just aren’t there to sufficiently educate oneself without actually playing the game. My point is just that we don’t necessarily have to play a game to know that it isn’t a work of art, or that it’s a bad work of art. And, depending on how we define art, we can say consistently that no games are art. In that case, it’s perfectly legitimate to have an argument about how we define our terms, but “Don’t knock it until you try it” adds nothing to the discussion.


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Comments (24)
Default_picture
April 18, 2010

By my definition of art, human creations for which there are no "correct" outcomes constitutes art. I've never associated art with quality; BMX XXX is art by my definition -- I cringe as much as you do at this thought -- it just happens to be shitty art. Art can be shitty. Just ask any 1st grade teacher.

I know my definition of art is extremely vague, but so are many other people's. Mine just happens to cast a much wider net.

Lance_darnell
April 18, 2010

That "critic who will not be named" is just being a cultural elitist. Any fool would consider the stage to be art, yet there are many shows and plays that contain interaction with the audience. I read about a Austrian theatre that did this as early as the 1700's. Critics of that time looked down on these "interactive" plays, perhaps in the same way stage actors look down on dinner theatre actors, but does that make them any less "art" than a non-interactive play? No.

Isn't it pathetic how the only way "that critic I won't name" can get some extra press is be essentially duplicating an argument he already made?

Oh, and very well-written and I agree with your points.

Profilepic
April 18, 2010

Suriel: The shitty art vs. not art question is really complex for me. Reminds me that I need to work on clarifying my own definition of art. I still don't think BMX XXX would make the cut, even as bad art.


Lance: I'd say it's more of a half-assed attempt at cultural elitism. Lots of performance art features interactive elements, and philosophers like Roland Barthes, W.K. Wimsatt and Monroe Beardsley have proposed aesthetic theories that call his position on authorial control into question. That's why I didn't use his name (though it's been suggested that I should change that), and why I don't think his position is worth addressing.

Picture_002
April 18, 2010

I'll say this. there's a broad sense in which I agree with Cameron, but as I've said before (and actually written here) I'm pretty much in no positions to make a valid opinion on the quality of a soccer game knowing very little about soccer purely on what amounts to a second-hand account.

Can I look at a score and make an assumption based on how high scoring it was. Sure, but if I'm viewing it not through the lens of understanding soccer but through basketball, let's say, every soccer game ever played is bad to me. Nor would I know that much more than a few stills or ten seconds of video from the entire thing.

I have no beef with him having an opinion. Everyone's a allowed an opinion. My biggest problem with that what he wrote comes down catching the tone he hasn't and feels too self-important to actually make the effort to experience what he is critiquing. I've never gotten the impression he respected the genre of video games enough to not try and view them through the lens of something else but on their own terms.

As such I'm not under the impression (like many a politician, activist, or other public figure before him) he's actually taken the time to understand what he's talking about before looking down his nose at it. If you want to look down your nose at BMX XXX or Braid after dealing with them as what they are, be my guest. I just find it irresponsible considering his platform not to do so.

Default_picture
April 19, 2010

BMX XXX is art. I unlocked every video!!! OK, I lied. I only unlocked one.


I agree with Lance's comment.

 

Default_picture
April 19, 2010

This is a perfect example of my main issue with the coverage I've seen of this issue: Too much argument, not enough discussion. Too much of it is a direct rebuttal to what this 'unnamed critic' said. I thank you for doing something different than that, and I think you have some good points about the topic as a whole, but pointing out the problems with other people's views, like you say, adds nothing to the discussion.

Personally, I think that Nick's point is valid in this situation. This critic clearly hasn't done anywhere near enough research to claim to have any credibility, and you say as much yourself, so in direct relation to this situation I don't see any problems. No one ever pointed to BMX XXX as an example of art, and in that case I don't think you would gain anything from actually playing it. The reviews can quite likely do more than enough to communicate the experience of playing that game. However, in the first 10 minutes of playing Braid I could easily see what people meant when they said it had artistic merit. No matter how much discussion I heard about it, I still didn't entirely see the connections the game makes between it's gameplay, story, and even music. In that case, playing it was the best way to see how it could be seen as art.

I sort of didn't want to post this comment, as it quite clearly contradicts half of my point, but I do think it's an interesting topic, I'd just prefer people were approaching it in a different way.

Jayhenningsen
April 22, 2010

To further clarify my comment above, I wanted to say that the point at which my opinion diverges from yours, Cameron, is when the audience changes. Sure, it's ok to decide for yourself that something isn't worth your time (like BMX XXX). But it's quite another thing to go spewing that idea publicly and to expect people to agree with you, without having the experience to actually back up your statement.

I don't care if a single person thinks to themselves that games are not art. I do care if a person who claims to be an expert on the arts in general publicly derides a particular medium without having properly experienced it. That's where I draw the line.

Chas_profile
April 22, 2010

Art is just one person's opinion that the things they enjoy are better than the things others enjoy. Basically, art is a pointless label people use to make themselves look or sound smarter that others, but it just makes them and anyone who gets caught up in the argument look stupid.

Twitpic
April 22, 2010

I was going to comment exactly what Jay Henningsen wrote, so instead I'll say this:

 This is my favorite Art.

Default_picture
April 22, 2010

For an article not discussing this nameless critic, you sure do mention him alot.

Profilepic
April 22, 2010

Jay: Thanks for your comments. I think the sticking point here is what constitutes having "properly experienced" something. That's not the kind of thing that you can give an absolute definition for, but I think a working definition would be an ability to discuss a game intelligently.  If that's the case, what about the act of playing BMX XXX would affect the way I would discuss it? Ok, I'd be able to say that it controls well, but that would have no effect on my overall judgment of it as ugly, exploitative garbage.

Here's another way to think about it. I've never seen my favorite painting in person, but I've seen numerous reproductions of it, and studied both it and the painter in an Art History class. If firsthand experience is necessary to having an educated opinion, though, everything I've learned about that painting is irrelevant. I really don't know anything about it, because I haven't been in the same room with it. It's not that I wouldn't learn new things about the painting if I saw it in person--I would. But I doubt any of them would be a revelation that would completely change my perspective.

Default_picture
April 22, 2010

I agree with the idea that you don't have to experience something to judge it. Absolutely.
But I think you're missing the point. It's not specifically that Ebert has never played these games, it's that he clearly doesn't even understand what they even are. He compares the time mechanic in Braid to chess and asks if Flower has scoring. How could you debate the merits of something that you don't even understand? And you absolutely do need to have some sliver of understanding of what you are talking about if you wish to be taken seriously. If he wrote about these games in a way that suggested that he knew what they were, how they worked, and specifically why they are perceived as artistic by others, then no one would have suggested that he should play them.

Jayhenningsen
April 22, 2010

Cameron - The whole key to your example is "I doubt any of them would be a revelation that would completely change my perspective." You're not publicly proclaiming that this is definitively the best painting of all time and trying to convince others of that, you're just deciding that for yourself. I take no issue with this.

This begs the question: Would you feel comfortable writing a book on that painting if you didn't see it in person? Or, more importantly: Would the art community accept a book from you if you didn't see it in person?

You may disagree, but I feel the answer to both of those should be "no." It's one thing to make up your own mind, but once you attempt to bring your opinions to the masses and portray yourself as a true scholar or even an expert, you owe it to your audience to learn as much as possible about that work, whatever it is. I personally feel that to do any less is irresponsible.

For video games, this would mean playing the game to completion, in my opinion. For BMX XXX, I would not hesitate to think that the game is trash, and I would have no problem telling my friends the same. However, if I wanted to write an article about it on Bitmob, I think it's my responsibility to play that game first. Otherwise, I come off as just another guy with an opinion, and I lose credibility as a journalist.

Ebert is not just making up his own mind here. He's trying to share that viewpoint with others, and taking a position as a scholar and expert of the arts.  I honestly think he's making himself look like a fool in the process but not even attempting to understand the media he is deriding in a public forum.

Default_picture
April 22, 2010

2 points against  your argument:

First, in at least one example, you used another person's subjective experience to figure out whether an opinion about the games you were judging from afar was the correct judgment. But what makes these people qualified to answer the question of whether something is good? And ultimately, didn't someone had to actually play the game? I don't think you can plausibly judge a game with no one ever playing it. It's like judging a book without no one reading it.

Also, I do think you must play the game to give an opinion. Let's say I know nothing about house building, and I pass by a contractor (someone who knows about house building) and a client. I hear them discussing some point about the foundation, and I step forward and proclaim, "That's not how to build a house!" These people would want to know what experience I have with house building, i.e. how much knowledge about the subject. Why should I be as qualified at house building as the contractor granted I have no knowledge about house building? It goes against our typical conception of what it means to know something or what it means to be a worthy expert. As far as I see it, the argument is flawed in these two ways at least.  

Ironmaus
April 22, 2010

The only part I disagree with is this: "Aside from that, though, a medium’s defining characteristic is not necessarily relevant to the evaluation of a particular work in that medium." It's easy to say this about video games because they have a visual and auditory component in addition to their interactive component. You feel like you're getting some portion of the experience of the game even if you're not the one at the controls. But try saying the same thing about a book or a piece of music and this seems particularly ridiculous: "I don't need to know firsthand how Mother Night is written, just hearing the summary from a friend and knowing it's about Nazis makes me able to review it."

In fact, I think I'm going to disagree with this whole idea. Let's take this statement: "I’m not even sure that I would have to play something as complex as Sleep is Death in order to make a competent judgment about its artistic merits, if I could see video of people actually playing it and learn what goes on in a play session. With enough information, my subjective experience would take a backseat to other facts at my disposal." Knowing how it affects others can give you credible ground for making statements about the impact of the work on the community. But, without playing it, you can know how the game looks and sounds, but not how the game feels. If a game is just visuals and sounds, then it's not a game, it's the spectator version of a game, more akin to a movie or a sporting event. Without playing it, you're about a different thing.

I've seen paintball and it looks like hyperactive dorks living out their power fantasies. If I were to evaluate the experience of playing paintball by watching it, my evaluation would be that it's tedious. I would have missed all the heart-pumping excitement. The same is true for Peggle. If you feel the pressure of carefully aiming your last ball, praying for that camera slow down and the promised "Ode to Joy," your evaluation will be very different from someone watching you repetitively shoot balls at pegs.

Can someone write off an entire medium by defining it differently than others and remain consistent? Yes. Can someone ignore their own definition when evaluating works within a medium and remain consistent? Only if they want to look very, very foolish.

Default_picture
April 22, 2010

 If Sutner's "Don't knock it until you've tried it." adds nothing to the discussion, then surely Ebert's "Knock it. Period." doesn't even enter into it, and isn't worthy of mention at all (save for the fact that Ebert's comment prompted Sutner's).

Default_picture
April 22, 2010

About the only part of the article I agree with is that you can play with the definition of 'art' such that damn near anything will fit, or fail to fit, that definition. However, the idea that you can have  decent opinion of a game without playing it is pretty silly. 

Let's take your example: BMX XXX. You don't really know it's a crappy game. You only know that other people think it's crappy, and the premise doesn't appeal to you. It's possible, should you actually play it, that you might enjoy yourself (though you'd certainly never admit it). The biggest problem is that you, and the-critic-who-shall-not-be-named (tcwsnbn), are missing an entire element of the game: playing it. This is NOT like judging a movie from trailers... it's worse. It's like judging a movie based on a few sound clips (no video), or a song based on a couple bars of sheet music. Entire elements of the medium you propose to critique are missing, guaranteeing that you could in no way have a valid opinion of the whole.

What makes this important is illustrated perfectly by Jenny McCarthy. An opinion, even a completely baseless, demonstrably wrong opinion, can be important. tcwsnbn may be way off in the weeds when it comes to this topic, but his opinion carries weight. People listen to him, people like politicians. Yes, the old guard are dying out, but think of this, the big names of the democratic party average over 65 years old. It's going to be some time before they are replaced with folks who grew up with video games, and they can do a LOT of damage in the mean-time.

Profilepic
April 22, 2010

The comments from Jay, Christopher and Matthew have brought something to my attention that I should have made more clear in the article. I'm not saying that someone can be an expert on games without playing them. I'm just talking about making judgments, which everyone does, critic or otherwise.

I think that, underlying my argument, is the feeling that I'm yet to encounter a game in which the interactive element contributed to the aesthetics. I think Braid is an aesthetic success, but the way it handles has nothing to do with that opinion. The concept of controlling time is part of its aesthetics, but what I'm doing with the controller to make those things happen isn't. I believe someone will eventually create such a game, but as far as I know, it hasn't happened yet. At any rate, of course I'm not saying you can judge a game's controls without playing it.

Default_picture
April 22, 2010

It's still hard for me to take this whole situation seriously considering who made the comments. Then again, would I take it seriously had it been someone I respected? All signs point to no. I'm more the kind of person who'll just photoshop something funny in order to make light of the situation rather than react strongly.

I am heavily tempted to try my hands at  an inversion : Claim that movies are not art. Because honestly, what separates games from movies in that classification? Academics claiming that one is art and one is not.

April 22, 2010

I was going to read all the comments and reply something meaningful that hadn't been said before, but there's 19 of them now and most are quite long. I just have this to say:

Cameron, I can't quite understand your argument that knocking something you haven't tried is valid. Even with a decent amount of input from others you can come up with an opinion of something, but I don't think that opinion is necessarily a very valid one. Your examples seemed to illustrate your point, but I'm sure in your life there's been something which you formed an opinion of and later tried which completely revamped your opinion. Just because you do try something and have your opinion confirmed (either because of a strong preconceived bias or from objective experience) doesn't mean the earlier opinion was terribly valid.

Let's take your BMX XXX example, I'm not denying that it most probably was a terrible game, but maybe if you played it and found the controls to actually be good, you would have found that the game was fun. While that may not speak to the art side of things, there could have been a message buried in the game that would have maybe given the game a shred of credibility, who knows.

As for your comment about passing judgement on Braid without playing it. I can say that personally, I read a lot of reviews and saw some gameplay before playing it myself. Armed with that information, I wasn't ready to say the game was anything revolutionary or even art beyond looking cool. After playing the game my opinion changed drastically. By becoming invested in the story by acting as a participant the game took on a whole new meaning, depth, and importance. I think anyone would be hard pressed to feel the same about that game without playing it unless they watched a complete playthrough. Which brings me to your comment about the interactivity of a game that takes place through the controller.

Braid may not be a game where interactivity is paramount to the experience, it is important, but the basics of the game can be seen through watching a playthrough. Other games, Fallout, Oblivion, GTA, and other games that follow a less specific direction make that interaction important. Sure, they mostly end in the same few ways no matter who plays them, but the experience of getting to the end becomes entirely tailored to the player. 

As for your example of your favorite piece of art (I read about half the comments) and the whole first hand experience of seeing it. I'd argue that it's on a completely different level. Viewing a reproduction of that work gives you the core of the image because there is no interactivity beyond what you do in your mind. To compare the experience of seeing a reproduction of a painting to seeing the actual painting would be like comparing playing a review copy of a game that maybe has a few little bugs in it still (notice you're playing the game here). In both examples you're getting the essence of the experience which makes your opinion much more valid than if you'd just heard about it, or seen 1/4 of the painting in black and white printed in a newspaper (that's like a game trailer or gameplay clip I reckon).

Anyway, I hope none of this has already been said, if it has I apologize. To sum, BMX XXX is like sushi, it smells icky, sounds worse and is delicious to experience. (Note: I've never played BMX XXX or seen any coverage of it other than a review in EGM I believe.)

Don't knock it before you try it.

Default_picture
April 22, 2010

I think that if you're going to name the 1Up writer who wrote a response, it's pretty juvenile to omit Ebert's name. It's not Beetlejuice, after all.

Music is an art. Cooking is an art. Painting and sculpting are art. Writing is an art. Comedy is as much an art as tragedy.

Sticking with the writing part, you can write for a couple of reasons. You can write to communicate information, or you can write to communicate emotion. If you write to make someone FEEL something, it's art. If a video game is meant to make you feel something, then it's art.

Ebert plays chess and maintains that chess is not art. I disagree. Chess is more of a dance than a game. Yes, you will be hard pressed to ever convince me that Connect Four or Sorry! are art, but Ico? Halo? Gears? Super Mario?

If you go to an art museum, and see a sculpture of tubes and wires twisting and turning this way and that, how different is that from a Mario game that starts you at one end of a tube and moves you up and down, and around until you get to the end?

Lastly, the author of the original article, which prompted the remarks by Ebert, listed a bunch of corporate stuff involved in the creation of a game, to which Ebert pointed and said "I rest my case." Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Michaelangelo, da Vinci and Van Gogh were all paid to create the works of art that they produced. They were simply the artistic cogs in the machine. The same can be said for Kubrick, Coppola, McCartney, Hendrix, Clapton and countless others.

April 22, 2010

One more quick thing.

"I think that, underlying my argument, is the feeling that I'm yet to encounter a game in which the interactive element contributed to the aesthetics. I think Braid is an aesthetic success, but the way it handles has nothing to do with that opinion. The concept of controlling time is part of its aesthetics, but what I'm doing with the controller to make those things happen isn't."

I think your argument has the wrong basis then. WHAT you're doing with the controller doesn't really matter, it doesn't matter if you're pressing A or X or UP on the controller to jump. It's the fact that you are doing SOMETHING that matters. By doing something, impacting the environment of the game you allow yourself to become invested and to feel a part of that story. You seem to be arguing that watching a playthrough of a game is the same as actually playing through a game. 

Default_picture
April 23, 2010

Art is using skill in a field to express creativity. Something as small as a sandwich is art because you have to have skill with flavors while using your own imagination to make it your own. Whoever invented meatball subs and fluffernutters are great artist by my book.

Default_picture
April 24, 2010

I have to reiterate that the painting analogy (seeing a copy versus seeing the original) is flawed. Whether it’s a copy or the original, you interact with them the same way. But watching a video of a game is NOT the same as playing the game. A better analogy would be: Can you experience a movie by reading the script? Can you appreciate a book by seeing the movie adaptation? Can I evaluate The Godfather based on playing the game? Of course not.

Criticisms of a work, without actually experiencing that work, are meaningless and infantile.

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