I think Aaron hates Uncharted 2, so yeah, he hates at least one too many games :p

People can hate on me for my good taste all day. It's fine with me!

If this isn't showing up in iTunes yet, be patient, it often takes a few hours for iTunes to update.

hello there to all the Bitmob Staff!!!

We love you Aaron ;)

I want to side with Aaron for the simple fact that Raychul never seems to concede any point she makes.  Podcasting is supposed to be about conversation (not grandstanding) and when one person is unshakable on all of their opinions, it's not really conducive to a great podcast.

Just my two cents.

Very controversial episode...

Kudos to Aaron Thomas for not letting Raychul get away with any of her usual drivel, and making some excellent counter-arguments in the face of being shouted down - never an enviable position to be in.

No Mobcast coverage of PAX East? Boo :(

My heart started to sing when Jason mentioned Dragon Quest. There is something about those games that just make me happy as I play them. When I played Dragon Quest VIII, I had this stupid perpetual grin on my face for the full 90+ plus hours I spent playing it. And when I finally finished it, I was so satisfied that I actually felt a connection to it.

Say what you will about the localization and voice over, but I felt the same way with Lunar: Silver Star Story complete. The game was just rank with the passion behind it.

The connection a player feels towards the game is obviously the deciding factor whether or not they think a game has soul. I mean, look at Shadow of the Colossus, there is going to be some disconnect if you don't care about the cause and effect. I played the game in a fairly isolated state. Late at night, no-one else around, just me trying to bring wander's girlfriend/wife back from the grave. I had my suspicions about where the story was going, but I still felt betrayed at the end. It wasnt "oh, that's the plot-twist"... It was an actual feeling of betrayal... this is making me sound sad, lets move on.

I could continue with the whole "would you kindly" thing... but I think I made my point. There are so many different factors to what makes a game "have soul," that it's tough to say what it is. It's easier to pick specific examples of games and declare what it was about the game that gave it soul.

Even with the "passion behind it" arguement, Gears of War has a lot of passion behind it that is apparent as you play it, but I wouldnt say it has soul.

This was one of my favourite podcasts btw. oh, and Portal. Portal has soul.

Raychul may be stubborn, but I think her points on change within a game franchise were well-stated.  If a game in a series strays unusually far from its respected and accepted norms, you might as well just give it a whole new title.  Great episode, guys, it's always nice to hear a good debate.

The common theme in this episode seems to be the struggle between games that are build around a mechanic or build around a narrative. What the guys call soul is often the ability of a game to take you to a place you like, so I think. To give you the sense of a coherent place. And therefore you will find much more modern games that have a soul. In the first video games that had any kind of story, it was often bolted on to theme some mechanics that were cool or new. Story was support. In allot of today's games it is the other way around. Take bioshock of example the shooter mechanics are completely forgettable but the sense of place in that game is amazing. So the actual game mechanics became the support to the story delivery.

I don't think that this is the conclusive answer to what make the soul of a video game, but it explains my perceptions to a large extent. A counter argument would be that I think many newer indie titles have soul as well. And those are very often mechanics driven.

I have not arrived at a point yet where I feel I can grasp every aspect of the discussion. But I am not sure if anyone of us is.

Had to turn it off after a while. All the shouting into a set of low-quality earbuds gets pretty tiresome eventually. Did like Raychul's point about the Wii not being Gimmicky, pointing to Nintendo games and then saying they only use it rarely which sounds kinda like a gimmick to me.

edit: Oh and just to throw a point into judging stuff on sales. Is that really what we want to do? Really? Every second auto-tune song seems to sell a buttload so let's just stop the talented singing because thats obviously not what the market wants.

Market wants what market gets. Simple as.

Aaron hates too many games. =)

Also, Eric: The entirety of Pixel Revolt last week was dedicated to PAX East!

Games got soul brotha!

The game(s) with the most soul in my memory which I'll never forget is Little Big Adventure aka relentless and LBA 2, the characters and style of the game are charming as hell the story fully fleshed out fun, I've been waiting for the third installment for 13 years, surely its about time, please....

Hey bums! I'm looking at you, Dan and Jason -- I've been waiting to face off in the Starcraft 2 beta for weeks now! I promise, it's really not as daunting as you think.

As for open-world games -- recent entries spoil the good fun in two ways: through a rigid, mission-driven narrative structure and the lack of a meta-game. The new Red Dead looks interesting specifically because of the numerous ways in which the player can actually affect the world around him (i.e., the meta-game). I'll be really disappointed if Rockstar shackles it with a linear story, a la Grand Theft Auto 4.

And my game(s) with soul? I think I'm approaching this question a little differently -- to me, games with "soul" are those that embrace their medium, not those that merely convey emotion through the techniques of film or novels.

Demon's Souls is one such example, where the gameplay itself evokes an emotional response from the player -- fear, dread, caution, and loneliness. A classic to do the same is X-Com: UFO Defense. There's nothing quite like breaching a downed UFO with a squad of defenseless rookies, especially when you've named everyone after people you know.

Ah, I just can't get into Starcraft 2. I don't know what it is. Sad, cause I liked the first game.

I think a big part of what gives a game soul is what the developer wants to convey with it. Do they just want to make a fun game or do they want to deliver other emotions too? Do they know how to evokoe those kinds of moods in an interactive space?

I kinda did a bitmob post touching on that:
http://bitmob.com/articles/gaming-needs-more-artists

Dan, maybe you just need to play against someone you know -- it's a lot more fun than a random game.

Please get rid of Raychul... She is so annoying... Loud, and stubborn... Does she like anything?

Shoe, I know she is your girlfriend but she is very unlikeable.

I love how she gets fired up. Heated arguments about games is amusing.

Don't want to be a complainer, but when everyone was saying Aaron was grumpy, the only reason he might have seemed that is because he's the only one who has the guts to argue with Raychul's completely incoherent arguments. I don't completely dislike her, but she's not very good at presenting any logical points for her arguments.

And she contradicts herself. For example she says how much she loves God of War 3 because it kept the same mechanics as the last games, then on her topic she complains about Just Cause 2 being the same thing over and over. God of War, regardless of what kind of fan you are, it is the same game over and over, but that's okay because she likes it. But Just Cause isn't aloud to do the same? I like God of War and Just Cause, but at least I'll admit that God of War hasn't changed since the first one. Although God of War might not feel as repetitive as Just Cause, it is. She'll just make up any argument to defend a game she likes, logical or not.

Even if I didnt always agree with her, I appreciate that she kept the discussion fired up. I mean... you gotta stand up for what you believe in. No point stilling your tongue when your with friends talking about something as trivial (in the grand scheme of things) as games.

I've been listening to alot of podcasts as I farm for Gil in FFXIII, so I'm hoping this is the podcast that they mentioned Zelda not being that great anymore... anyways if I was there when Shoe mentioned it, I would have stood up and while pointing at him, yelled "HOW F***ING DARE YOU!" ... in a polite Canadian manner, mind you. Even though deep down in my heart I know that the Zelda formula has been done to death.

@Jared R. - When she was talking about Just Cause 2, wasn't she saying that it was the same in the context of the game being boring in and of itself, not that it was the same as a previous game? Obviously I'm not sure, so correct me if I'm wrong. But I recall that being her point.

Anyway, I think everyone needs to chill about Raychul. I went into this podcast thinking it was going to be so heated because some of these comments...and...it wasn't. The only thing I would criticize her for is telling Aaron he just likes to fight near the beginning, and not directly answering him when he said "name 2" or something like that, but that's not really a huge deal. Otherwise...I fail to see what points she didn't back up. And a lot of the points were opinion based...why would she concede on an opinion?

I guess she is a little stubborn, but she's not like...this raging incoherent bitch that you guys are making her out to be. Well, not all of you.

Anyway...

I liked this podcast. I actually don't mind when games repeat themselves. The Zelda games for instance...I love their formula...beat it to death all you want Nintendo, I don't mind. =P Although it is essential, especially from a marketing standpoint, to change it up. I agree that the changes in the Mario franchise are exemplary of how to go about it.

Games with soul...well, speaking of Zelda, I would say Zelda, specifically Ocarina of Time. I'm one of those unoriginal people that hails this as their favorite game, but I was like 8 when I had that opinion, so I don't care. But anyway, I think that OoT is a good example of a game with soul because the storyline itself isn't anything crazy, but it is the world and characters that make it so involving and really make it come to life. They're just very charming and well designed characters. So I think that's some quintessential soul right there. The music also adds to it, which leads to another popular series...Final Fantasy. It has soul for obvious reasons, and music is a biggie. Music is so essential to a game, and I won't get into why, because I assume as gamers, you all know what I mean.

Persona 3 also has soul. Very well written, good characters, the works. It makes me want more, like an anime or manga, which I know it does have, but they're either too different, or just a reiteration of the game. I want more from that game's world. I suppose that's a good indicator of soul, wanting more of the characters/story in any form, not just a game.

Oh, and in the same way Mario has soul, Donkey Kong has tremendous soul. Donkey Kong is like, a hair above Mario for me, that's how much I love it. I'm specifically talking about the 3 games for the SNES.

I'm not saying she's terrible or she's this crazy, loud, annoying person but it just gets annoying to hear her rambling argument.

But about the Just Cause 2 thing, she said that Just Cause 2 was repetitive, which I agree it is, but how can someone complain about the repetitiveness of Just Cause 2 but act like God of War isn't? That's my whole point. It just always feels like she makes excuses for the games she likes when they're just as guilty as the games she doesn't like. 

But I wouldn't want her off the podcast, I'm not saying that. Just the inconsistency of her arguments can be annoying.

So Aaron kinda failed on this podcast...I want to pull for him, but damn being anti-sequel and boss battles makes me question if you like video games.

So Mario 3 and Mega Man 2 aren't going to be Aaron's cup o' tea, but good ole Shenmue is. Amazing. At first, I thought Aaron was being contrarian, but I seriously see that video games may not be for homie.

I still like'm though.

I agree with  Raychul Moore that Saints Row 2 is the perfect balance of missions and sandbox. My favorite thing about Saints Row 2 was that the side missions actually give you something worth working for. Do this side mission get unlimited ammo for this or that gun.

@Isaiah Why do games need boss battles? I find boss battles to be contrived and some of the worst aspects of a game.

I suppose you find tests at the end of quarters or school years to be terrible as well.

Boss battles have their place. If you take the many "wall beasts" out of a Contra or sub-bosses leading up to a boss battle in Streets of Rage you are essentially defeating the 'game' part of the particular genre. Do boss battles also not make sense in side-scrolling shooters? Zelda-like RPGs? I love figuring out a pattern or using a quick twitch reaction to oust a foe. Though it may be archaic, its fun. Remember fun?

I'd rather have eight Mario's than eight Shenmue's.

True, convention gets old, but I'm failing to see when a boss battle becomes 'contrived'. When its done badly? That's a little unfair considering that current games aren't doing boss battles as well as their predecessors.  If a game story is always hinting at a higher power [which they so often do] why is it 'now' seen as an uncouth device to have the main character square off against said higher power[s]?

I'd be more inclined to agree with you if you said current boss battles have been the worst aspects of games, but I'm guessing you've had a long history of running into castles and the princess being elsewhere. For that I am sorry, but I'll keep the contrived device. It will come in useful [hopefully] for future games that remember the Castlevania's and Metroid's when they improve upon this very traditional aspect of games.

Note: This isn't to say that all games should contain a boss battle element. This is to say that there should be room for genres that work better with boss battles as opposed to stories. Because lets be real, if you're banking on having more video games with great boss battles versus games with great stories, you gotta be leaning towards boss battles.

I pretty much agree with what Aaron said about God of War 3, yeah it's more of the same only more crazy and epic but that's not a bad thing. That said, doing the same thing, and doing that same thing really well, three times over 6 years I think is really spreading it out. Now if they had been cranking out God of War sequels every year instead of every 2, and we were playing 6 instead of 3, it would be ridiculous. I think the trilogy had a good run and in a couple years I'll look back and think "man, those games were really really good".  They've said that Kratos' story is told and you know what I think would be a really badass setting for a new character in a God of War title? Norse mythology.  Soooo badass.

As for Just Cause 2, and the majority of sandbox games for that matter, they are repetitive and I've found that they are fun to play but hard to finish. Sandbox games are great to download as demos and see if it's something you'll want to keep doing for 30-40 hours.  I played the demo a few times and clocked in a couple hours and I feel like I experienced what the game has to offer, but the completionist in me wanted to pick up the retail copy and go to town collecting stuff.  Maybe if there is a lull in good games this summer I'll pick it up and invest some serious hours into it.

Great podcast by the way. 

I enjoyed the podcast.  Like a little heat sometimes.  I recently downloaded a free game called Passage and it had more soul than any other game I've played this year.  Caught me by surprise

Hey! I thought we were all supposed to post something about games with "soul", not to bitch about Raychul being feisty or about Aaron not liking anything ; D

Anyway, I think the original Skate. has plenty of soul. No other game before it -- sorry Tony Hawk, as fun as you were -- has managed to capture the free spirited nature of skateboarding so well. You can lose yourself for hours just skating around the city and imagining possible lines all over the place and, after that, try to pull them off over and over again until you get them right. It doesn't matter if there's no tangible reward for doing it , you just do it to see the product of your creativity in perfect motion.

@Shoe: I knew you were going to use MW2 as an example of a very fun and technically proficient game, but without soul. I recently read a post on Charlie Brooker's -- he's a writer for the Guardian UK -- blog about that. At one point he wrote "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 is the Citizen Kane of repeatedly shooting people in the face. The storyline makes less sense than a gas ladder, but in terms of technical achievement, this is an undoubted masterpiece." I think that's pretty exactly what you meant as well.

Awesome episode, by the way.

 Side Note:  Great podcast by the way.  The whole soul thing really did made me think as evident by above. 

please no more Rachel.  Listening to her during that Nintendo talk at the beginning of the podcast was just...yeah....

Jet Set Radio Future has soul, Professor K.  would have you believe.

Though I find Aaron to be completely and utterly wrong on many things that he hates, I do rather enjoy listening him talk about it. =D

Raychul mentioned that she thinks most Final Fantasy fans are people who stick with JRPGs... I don't think that's true, but not necessarily because of their gaming tastes have shifted greatly.  The fact of the matter is that there just has not been anywhere near as many good JRPGs this generation (except on handhelds, but that's kind of a different audience).  FFXIII was the first JRPG I actually finished this generation, and almost every one of my friends who have had an interest in JRPGs have played it too.  But most of them, like me, have also played plenty of games of other genres since then.

Someone (Aaron, I believe it was?) asked the question of why make the same games over and over again... that's got to be a rhetorical question, right?  I mean, has he looked at the sales chart lately?  Madden... Call of Duty... Halo... [big-name-high-profile online FPS of your choice]...  Guitar Hero... these are the runaway successes of recent memory.  Is it really surprising that the same types of games are kept being made?

And finally, games with "soul".  And despite what I said about Aaron at the start, I agree with him unequivocally on Ico.  Whenever people talk about the best games on each console, I often find myself having trouble picking a clear number 1.  Yet for all the amazing games that came out on the PS2, I have no such problem - it's Ico.  The world was both beautiful and surreal, the level design was fantastic, and most of all, the way it managed to convey a story, develop a blossoming relationship between Ico and Yorda that I truly cared about, and to do it all with no (intelligible) dialogue, was just astonishing.  The game was hardly a very long one, but the 7 or so hours I spent playing it is one of those experiences Shoe mentioned, where you almost wish you could go back and experience it anew all over again, because it was just that amazing.

Another game that you guys touched briefly on, and which I absolutely say does have soul, is Super Mario Bros. 3.  I mentioned that I could definitively name the best game on the PS2... the NES might be the only other console that I can say the same for, and SMB3 is it.  The things that SMB3 did well are fairly obvious - precise platforming controls, varied worlds, great level design, etc.  But as far as I'm concerned, it being a game with soul really comes down to one aspect - the power-ups.  I still maintain that no game before, or since, has had a better collection of power-ups, and I would be amazed if any ever did.  Learning to fly as Racoon Mario, swimming (or more amusingly, jumping on land) as Frog Mario, turning into a statue as Tanooki Mario, becoming basically invulnerable as Hammer Bros. Mario... every single new power-up in SMB3 was unique, fun, and charming. And then there was the Kuribo Shoe.  They made a special, and completely optional, power-up that was only available to use in one level in the entire game!  If a game like that can't be consider to have "soul", then I honestly don't know what does.

And finally, one more game with "soul".  Portal.  It's a game that's recent enough, and universally acclaimed enough, that I don't think much in the way of explanation is required.  And judging from the way the various aspects of the game has become internet memes, I don't think it's unfair to say that many would agree.

I just wanted to add Little Big Planet and Beatles Rockband as two games that have a soul. Both games feel like there were the developer's life work.

First up, I just registered onto this site for the sole purpose of commenting that this was a FANTASTIC episode of the podcast.  To each his own about Raychul, but I thought all her arguments were sound and she backed up her opinions with more reason than "just because".  I guess it helps that I agreed with the majority of what she had to say and Aaron, though I'm sure very sincere, was just coming off as contrary for the sake of it.  I did not agree with most of his opinions or his tastes in gaming, but thats ok and it made for a very good discussion.  Btw, Raychul never grandstanded, she simply put forth some real world facts to help support some of her opinions.  Aaron on the other hand, whenever Raychul made a good point (especially during the Nintendo discussion) , instead of agreeing or disagreeing and following up with an explanation to back up his opinion, he just decided to attack her stance from a different angle totally ignoring whatever she said before.  That's when she said that he just liked to argue and I completely agreed, it was annoying.  

I hope they are both on together again for more future podcasts because I like hearing different opinions on games and the industry from people who have such opposing tastes.

Jason is awesome in that he was so chill and added yet another completely different attitude towards games.  The perfect combo to Raychul's passion and Aaron's negativity.

As far as soul games are concerned, the first that came to mind was Super Metroid.  From opening credits till the very last screen, that game cartridge just seemed to breathe to me when I first experienced it.